The Seed Project

Hands that Speak: A CODA's Journey

• Charlotte Edwards • Episode 2

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In this compelling episode, we explore the remarkable life of Julia Schafer a CODA (Child of Deaf Adults) and her unique experiences, shedding light on the intersection of Deaf culture, sign language, and the hearing world. Discover the power of nonverbal communication and the rich stories behind 'Hands That Speak'.

For more information on CODA:
https://coda-international.org/

Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf
https://rid.org/

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Welcome to The Seed Project. It's a podcast that nourishes your heart, mind, and soul. I'm your host, Charlotte Edwards. I believe everyone plants a seed in each other, whether it's a seed of knowledge, inspiration, or impact. I created this podcast so we could have real conversations, create connections, and grow into the best versions of ourselves. Everyone has a story to tell, so let's share ours together to empower, heal, and grow. Laugh and learn. Grab a cup of coffee and let's start planting.

Charlotte:

Hi, everyone. I'm excited to have Julia Shaffer on today. Julia is a Coda. A child of deaf adults and she's also my cousin. She's here to talk about her journey of growing up with deaf parents. And navigating the deaf community and the hearing world. She will talk about. The connections. She made the challenges she had as a child, and then how it led her to her path of becoming a professional. Interpreter. Julia graduated from the university of Maine with a degree in sociology in education. She is in our ID certified American sign language interpreter. Julia lives in old orchard beach, Maine with her husband, Travis and their dog, Joey. Julia. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us today.

Julia:

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here.

Charlotte:

At a young age, when was the first time you actually recalled, that your parents were a little bit different than

Julia:

others? You know, I, I don't really remember exactly what. But I, I know that, I, I don't know how to explain it. Well, I know that I communicated with them differently than others did, but I don't really know how old I was. and that might be just because I've been retold stories of other people's experiences of me growing up with deaf parents. I know that my first language was American sign language. I was able to speak with my parents. Using, American sign language before I could use spoken language. And, even though my mom was a stay at home mom, my dad worked, he went to work every day, but even though my mom was a stay at home mom, I went to, daycare or preschool at an earlier age so that I could be around my, typical hearing peers so I could develop language typically like the rest of them. And I also learned a lot from Sesame Street watching TV. Oh, that's a great. I learned a lot of language that way. I also was around, my grandparents. My dad's parents lived just five minutes away. And so I was around hearing family members to develop. My, spoken language skills, but definitely my first language was American sign language. that's what we used at home every day. and that's how I communicated with them. Honestly, I really don't remember being or noticing any real difference until maybe I was in elementary school at some point. When I got to an age where I could go to friends houses, or I could go to, you know, sleepovers, or if my parents were coming to school for, a parent night or something, that's around the time when I noticed that my parents were different than others parents. I know that for, parent teacher nights, my grandparents would come and interpret for my parents at that time. There were no interpreters, per se, or schools wouldn't, you know, hire an interpreter to come in. They always relied on family members to be the interpreters, which is big faux pas these days.

Charlotte:

wow, that's amazing. Because what if your grandparents. Didn't live close by you and, you had a parent teacher conference and there's nobody to communicate and I think it's hard for you to have to communicate about yourself to your parents, for a conference in elementary school. If your grandparents, didn't live close to you.

Julia:

Right. They, at that time, they would rely on the children to be the interpreters, or they would rely on using pen and paper to write notes back and forth. But that wasn't very successful because English for deaf people is a second language for most. Deaf people, American Sign Language is their first language, and English is their second language, because ASL and English are not... Interchangeable. Yeah, they're not interchangeable. They're not the same thing. So a lot of miscommunication happening and, and again, relying on the kiddos to be the interpreters and imagine all the miscommunication happening there or. Absence of a lot of the information I was

Charlotte:

trying to say, I mean, maybe if it's we're coming to tell you that Julia is phenomenal and got honor roll. Of course, you're going to sign all of that, but Julie's not being very nice to all of her friends, or we've had to talk to her about talking too much or misbehaving. Of course, there'd probably be some gaps. And, that translation,

Julia:

right? Not that that was me. Yeah. I was always the good quiet kid in the corner, but, my grades may not have been, stellar, but they, yeah, when I was in high school,. Or even in, gosh, in middle school, if I was sick, I would have to be the one to call myself out sick. cause my parents, at the time, there was not an easy way to call the school and inform them, Hey, my child is sick, they'll be staying home today. I called myself in sick. And the school nurse or the secretary was like, okay, thanks, hope you feel better.

Charlotte:

I'm sure in middle school, that was probably good, but I'm sure in high school, maybe that could have been used to your

Julia:

advantage. It could have been, but I was one of those goody two shoes kids., I did not take advantage of that. looking back on it,

Charlotte:

So you guys are teenagers in high school. obviously teenagers can be just tough to raise in any situation, but also having, parents that communicate differently. Do you remember incidents where you just want to scream at your parents and you're frustrated and maybe it's not at them or, it's just a time you're growing into your own independence yet you also have to be the communicator for kind of the outside world with your parents.

Julia:

Yeah. Granted, it's been a long time since I was a teenager. I'm trying to remember. I mean, there are certainly definitely. Arguments would happen and, you know, I think we were louder than most people would think that we might have been. But, I was definitely more the shy, quiet, um, teenager growing up. I never wanted to draw attention. I never wanted to be the center of attention. I remember there being a time when I was out shopping with my mom and we were in a department store and she, wanted to ask, or I was interested in something. And so mom wanted to ask the salesperson, a question on my behalf. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't want to bother. I just don't, I'm not in the mood to talk to somebody. I just. I don't really care that much about it. And she was insistent on it, which meant I had to be her interpreter. Um, and so I was kind of like, no, mom, I really don't feel like talking to somebody right now. But she went ahead and went up to this person, tapped them on the shoulder and tried communicating with them without. You know, trying to do it on her own. And so when I saw that, I'm like, Oh, okay. I will go and interpret for you. And, so it, it makes me sound like a, like a brat, but, it's situated with situations like that where those moments where I just, if I said, you know, I didn't want to, to be the interpreter. Um, but yet. Still needed to help be that interpreter. Um, I guess, I don't know if I'm wording it right.

Charlotte:

It doesn't make you seem like a Brad. It's just, it's also that age. It's more just a frustration. I just think it sounds bratty. You're. Annoyed, with your parents and as children, I don't care what age you are at some point, right? Your parents can get under your skin.

Julia:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. exactly. I think that being a teenager and not wanting to deal with adults. And then on top of that, my mom going ahead and. Pulling me into a conversation that I didn't want to have in the first place. and she just so happens to be speaking a different language. I, yeah, I think that would happen to anybody. Um, I kind of forget what your original question was.

Charlotte:

We were just talking about the school system and having to interpret for your mom starting at a very young age. You were saying. You had to call out of school. And probably when there were even just any kind of important phone calls for your parents, back then when they didn't have, I forget what the phone is that you guys use.

Julia:

Back when I was a kid, it was the TTY. So there was a service that, the deaf person could call to a relay service person where it was another, a hearing person on the other end, and they would type messages back and forth with each other while the interpreter was on the phone with the hearing person. But they were relying on type back and forth. which is not effective because again, that's. written English rather than using their original, their first language, American sign language to communicate. but so that's what we used, when I was younger. And then it probably wasn't until college that the video phones started coming out. and the video phone was able to, it's a visual way of communication. So a deaf person could get on their video phone and Connect with, an ASL interpreter and the ASL interpreter would then make the phone call. so the interpreter and the deaf person can see each other. So now they can use their first language, American Sign Language to be able to. Make phone calls and have far more clarity around conversations and less misunderstanding. But again, that didn't come around until I would think I was in college, like the end of my college years. I remember my graduation gift from high school was a TTY. So that when I went to college, I'd have a way of communicating with my parents. Oh my

Charlotte:

gosh, that's funny. Plus we're also dating ourselves.

Julia:

Yeah. Cause nobody uses TTYs anymore.

Charlotte:

It's funny because, even with you being family members my lack of knowledge, cause I was going to say email came about right when we were going, we all got our first AOL accounts, going off to college and pretty impressive that you still have your AOL account. I noticed. I was

Julia:

wondering if you were going to date me on that one,

Charlotte:

but I was thinking that, email would have helped. Your parents, but this just shows being naive to the fact that, ASL and English, two totally different languages and that it doesn't translate the same. So even with email, granted, it might be. A little bit easier than picking up a phone, but it's still probably isn't as much of a game changer when the iPhone's got FaceTime, that had to be a huge for you communicating with your parents, versus email. I guess I just, I don't know why I just wasn't even thinking those are two totally different languages. It's

Julia:

time and video phones. We're huge for the deaf community, telehealth, huge for the deaf community. Zoom huge, uh, well, when zoom came along, the deaf community was like, where have y'all been? We've been here doing this telecommunication stuff for a long time. And, uh, you know, it's, it's pretty amazing. But going back to how we communicated when I was younger, it was, I'd have to call a relay service to talk to an interpreter on the phone to have someone call my parents using the TTY, and it wasn't until, I think, when I was in high school, did they start hiring interpreters for different events, like for my graduation. I know there was an interpreter there for my graduation, but for concerts and things like that, We never knew that was a thing, cause I was involved in theater and choir and all that stuff. And we never knew it was a thing to request an interpreter. Um, cause I was always raised, my parents had grown up always having to rely on other people that we knew in our circle to help facilitate communication. But that was what, the had come out not long before that. And it took a long time for people to really pick up on the and. Uh, the Americans with Disabilities Act and to provide services that the law was meant to provide.

Charlotte:

Especially for the deaf community, it's, another language, just like Spanish or. Chinese

Julia:

they still like all those spoken languages, it's a cultural thing. I think for a lot of those communities to still rely on their family members to be interpreters, which I hate to hear that. But anyway,

Charlotte:

Since we're actually on this topic, I was going to ask you, because as our parents are aging how is it to be the daughter that sometimes is the slash interpreter, I get for more casual conversations. You're probably accustomed to it, even though it may be challenging, cause you're maybe having conversation with somebody else, but your parents can't speak to another family member unless they have you to interpret. But going into, the medical world, our parents are starting to have a lot more doctor's visits, and I know that your mom's had some, heart issues recently, but how is that for you? Do they still rely on you, or do you use the hospital services, and just in general, as a daughter, that you want to be their daughter, not necessarily the interpreter during kind of any kind of medical

issues?

Julia:

Bye. Yeah, it's, it's kind of a love hate relationship. Um, being the interpreter and the daughter I have years ago I had sat down with my parents and I said, you know, I'm happy to interpret for you in many different settings but the one that I really do not want to be the interpreter for is for your medical situations because I want to be there as your daughter. and I want to be there because when I'm interpreting when I'm in my professional role, information goes in 1 year and out the other. And I oftentimes, I mean, I retain information, but, not like I would as I'm trying to be there to care for a family member. If I'm interpreting, I won't retain information as though I want to like for my parents. So if I'm if I want to be there for my parents, I want to be able to take notes. I want to be able to hear the information and ask questions versus if I'm working as an interpreter, I'm not there to take notes and to retain information to ask questions, my own personal questions in support of my parents or in support of a client. But for my parents, I want to be able to be there to listen, to ask questions, to console my mom or dad if they needed it. Um, whereas if I'm working as an interpreter, I wouldn't have the time or space to be able to do that, if that makes sense.

Charlotte:

Um, Oh, definitely. Because I think in an interpreter, you're not really processing and digesting. I can't even think of a quick sentence, but your mom had a heart attack, let's say, and you're just really just saying your mom had a heart attack. You're not processing and, Understanding oh my gosh. What is recovery? did we have to have surgery? All the questions that you would think of are oh my goodness, is my mom going to be okay? Just is your mom had a heart attack. That's all. It's just one sentence.

Julia:

Right. And so with my mom, of course, all these emotional feelings are going to come up. Whereas when I'm working, I think I do a really good job at compartmentalizing a lot of those emotions. If I'm working with. A client who is going through an emergency situation, I can compartmentalize those emotions, um, and get the job done and do a good job making sure that the, the client knows all the information that they need to know about whatever condition, whatever situation they're going through. Um, whereas. When it's my mom, I can't compartmentalize all those feelings. I will be a basket case and not be able to, process that information because she just had a heart attack, you know, like I want it, but I want to be there to support her emotionally and also fight for the things that she needs to get in order to have. Success in the end. and so when I say it's a love hate relationship, the other part of it is, yes, we do rely on the interpreters that the hospital staffs and brings in. And so, I rely on those people, you know, to come in, do a good job and. I'm so thankful to have those interpreters be there. Um,

Charlotte:

however, it's coming. There's an however in there.

Julia:

I haven't, I, yeah, well, you know, it's my, my mom, it's my dad, and I want to make sure that they have good interpreters. I want to make sure that. We are fostering a field of interpreters that can come in and do a good job and be that quality of interpreter, that myself and other codas, children of deaf adults, can feel comfortable being in a hospital. And in having the services that come in do a good job for our parents. So it's sometimes it's hard to sit back and not be the interpreter, even though there's an interpreter right there in the room. Sometimes I kind of like, let me just add a little bit to that, you know, and help clarify that a little bit. Um, it's hard. I sometimes have to sit on my hands, and allow the interpreters to do their job. It's, it is hard. I think even if I wasn't. a professional interpreter, um, and just being a child, I think I'd still have a hard time watching the process play out and not trying to jump in every time. Um, yeah.

Charlotte:

did you always want to be an interpreter?

Julia:

No. No, I, no, I so did not want to be an interpreter. Um, I, I wanted to be a marine biologist or a teacher. I remember. Yeah, I even went and interviewed at Eckerd College in Florida and, um, decided academically that was not the right path for me to be on. Um, but, I did go to school. I was planning to be a teacher, but I ended up, let's see, I went to school for about two and a half years. Um, I went to the University of Southern Maine and after some time realized I just needed to take a break from school for a little while. And so I, left school and traveled a bit and, let me back up for just a second. My grandparents, the ones that I mentioned earlier that only lived about 5 minutes away, um. Nanny and Grandpa, your Aunt Bob and Uncle Sue, um, Nanny would always say, Julie, you're, you would be such a good interpreter. Why don't you think about becoming an interpreter? I was like, what? There is no way I'm becoming an interpreter. I know. Um, So it was brought up to me a long time ago, long before I ever even thought it would ever be an option. Did you just want to

Charlotte:

break? Did you just want to forge my own path. I don't want to I do enough of is at home. I can't fathom having to do this. I don't know every conversation

Julia:

or if I had the words. As to why I didn't want to do it. I also, there's always a part of me that doesn't want people to tell me what to do. And so that could be it too. I don't know if I had the words as to exactly why, if I just. If it's because I've been, like I said, it's because I've been doing it my whole life or if I just needed a break or, or just flat out, don't tell me what to do. I'll figure this out myself. but so, yeah, so call it left college traveled a bit. I just started working, at a local clothing store and was lifeguarding. And I was at a high school event for my brother, interpreting for my parents. And I think it was like an award ceremony banquet or something for my brother. Then a day or two later, I get a phone call from this woman who. I saw you at the high school and I am the sign language teacher at the school and I think you're really, really good. And I think that You should become an interpreter. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. And she says, well, what are you, what are you doing for work now? And I said, well, I work at a clothing store. Oh, really? So how much are you earning there? And I said, I don't know. I don't even remember what I was making back then. Eight, 10 an hour. I just was like, really? So did you know that you could make like 20 something more dollars an hour? And I was like. Oh, ears perked up a little bit. And so, later, I think the next week I went in and I interviewed and, got the job, my very 1st job, interpreting for a 5th grade boy and. That was it. That was when I started, in 1999, my first interpreting job, and that woman who called me, it's all because of her, and she's been a very, very close friend of mine for, ever since then, um, Val Sears was her name, and she, um, Kind of roped me into it and I've never left and I haven't ever looked back. I've loved every second of it. I did educational interpreting for a boatload of years. And then about eight or nine years ago, um, I transitioned from educational interpreting into freelance interpreting. And I love it. I absolutely love it. And I love it. Um, not only because the work is fun, but I think it's brought me closer to my parents, and closer to the Deaf community in Maine, and it's such a huge part of my own identity as well, and I don't know where I'd be without them, I think I've, it's been a weird journey. One that I never thought that I was going to go down, but it's part of who I am. And I, I feel fortunate every day to be able to do a job that, has always just come naturally for me. I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place here with lots of different things. I'm sorry.

Charlotte:

It's totally fine. We're just, we're just going with the flow. And when you say brought you closer to your parents, do you think it's because it has helped immerse you into the deaf community more?

Julia:

Yeah. I think, you know, when the deaf community is so small, and most of my parents experience in their everyday life is in the hearing community where they're not connected with the hearing community. And so they, they basically live within the hearing community. That they don't necessarily belong to. They belong to the deaf community. And so with the deaf community being so small and having a son and a daughter who are part of the hearing community, when I'm doing my work with the deaf community and we're at events that we can share together, as part of their community, I think that's what helps. Or has helped bring me closer to them, that I can be part of their community.

Charlotte:

So now your part, instead of them having a little taste of your world, you're immersed in their

Julia:

world. Yes. Yes. Yep. And I think what was also, has, bright, well, another connection within our family. So my brother, he has, Charlotte and Baxter, um, they both went to preschool at the main educational center for the deaf and hard of hearing where they have a preschool on the island where they went to preschool with, um, deaf peers. And so they got to learn sign language when they were very young. And so. Again, that's another connection to the deaf community that my parents could be a part of, where they could communicate with Charlotte and Baxter's teachers, without needing an interpreter. And so that's another aspect of our family that I think helped bring us closer to my parents. So just having those connections to their small community, I think has brought us as a family closer together. And it's something that I'm, I'm proud of., I like to see that, you know, my niece and nephew are able to communicate with their grandparents and that, when I go to events, I can communicate with my parents, friends. And, so, last weekend was, deaf culture festival. It was the end of a whole long week of deaf culture events. There was a lot of volunteering and participation. I can go to these events and be part of my parents world and talk with their friends and all share the same language and that's, again, just a way of us being closer together.

Charlotte:

I know that you did do a lot of musicals growing up. Probably just because it was different and maybe have friends doing it. do you think that was hard for your parents?

Julia:

I, at the time it never occurred to me, you know, when we're young, we're all about. You know, and, and I, it never occurred to me that, man, this must, that must have been so boring for them. but they always went, they always went to all our concerts. The theater stuff that we were involved in, they always went cause they were so supportive of us. Um, advice. If I'm thinking about, you know, school and things like that, I would always make sure that, that younger kids. Are not afraid or. Don't be shy of your parents. Just allow yourself to embrace your parents along with, you know, your friends, hearing parents, let there be interpreters involved and allow for those interpreters to help facilitate conversations between your parents and your friends, parents and, um. Don't shy away from that. I would encourage parents to make sure that you have access to communication. No matter where it is, in your in the school setting. It's I think at that young of an age, it's important for for those parents to have access to what's happening in their kids lives and at school and extracurricular activities and, um Just community access to communication, access to knowing what's happening in their environment is, is huge.

Charlotte:

I think it's also important what you said about not shying away from your parents. Do you feel like you did that or did you have instances where you shied away from it, and you don't want to look different than anybody else. And that, like

Julia:

I said earlier, I was very shy. I did not want her to have attention drawn to me. And so absolutely there were times where I would rather go hide under a rock. And I'm sure I probably avoided situations and, I look back on it and, I feel guilty about it now. And I'm sure I've probably felt some guilt around it then too. But I, I know it's a common thing for coders to, to feel, uh, that feeling and just wanting to assimilate with their peers. It's amazing how much power the concept of peers has over, uh, People. Yeah, I know that there were times when I would have that I shied away and avoided circumstances where I had to, when I was signing, obviously people were looking, you know, and so I

Charlotte:

Oh, what is she doing? And

Julia:

now I love it. I don't mind it. I embrace it now., I. Could care less if anybody's looking. But at the time I was so shy. I, I, yeah, never, never liked it.

Charlotte:

I truly feel like connection is the key to the human experience, whether it's a friend, whether it's with your parent. I even see that now with my teenager and as they get older, he's gravitating towards independence and all you want to do is be a part of his world still, because you're their mom and you want to feel connected to them. So I can't imagine as a parent that's deaf, having hearing children, and all you want to do is be a part of their world and, how hard that had to be for your parents, from their perspective, but also for a kid of trying to assimilate to society. Yeah.

Julia:

I definitely think that, we are embracing our younger codas, and encouraging them and bringing them to a place where they can feel comfortable and have a space where they are, allowed to be kids. Earlier we talked about CODA as CODA. Those are children of deaf adults, but then there's also K O D A, and those are kids under the age of 18, kids of deaf adults. Um. So the codas, the younger codas, there's all kinds of, support for them to embrace their parents, to embrace the language, to, to be with other codas who are, like themselves and in public schools, there's so much more acceptance of different cultures and different backgrounds. It's definitely not like it was when I was a kid. I definitely see that when I meet other CODAs who are younger. it's really cool to see that they have a lot more, resources, a lot more available to them now. Yeah. And going back to, the perspective of my parents, you know, how they felt going to events. For my brother and I, I also would love to talk more with my brother and hear his perspective because he was younger than me. And, when the movie coda came out, there's a scene in the movie where. Um, the parent, the deaf parents and the, their son goes to their daughter's music performance. And I was like, Oh, that was me. I was the one on stage with my chorus group or in the theater. And my parents came to see the show. And then I don't know about a month or so later, my brother and I were talking about it. He's like, yeah, I remember going to those shows with mom and dad and they were doing the exact same thing. Okay. Check that song's done. Check that song's done. Okay. We get four more songs till the concert's over. And because, you know, they were bored and all they were doing was really looking at what everybody else was wearing or, uh, had no concerns about, that person hit a flat note or what instruments were being played. And so I would love to hear more stories from my brother about how life was for him after I had gone off to college or, um. Because he was then left at home by himself with mom and dad without me being there. So I don't really know exactly what happened in those years. Um, because he was in high school when I was in college. it's interesting that, I, and I've been thinking about these questions for quite some time and just haven't had a chance to really ask him. Because we're always so busy when we all get together and, Playing with the kids or talking about other stuff. And so I gotta, I gotta ask him those questions.

Charlotte:

Julia, I really do appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. And I think, one thing I take away with this is We all want connection. We all want connection with our peers, our family, and that comes in, so many different forms. And, I hope for other CODAs. realize that connection is key, whether it's to your peers or to your family and to really find that community, find that community that can serve you, but then also serve your family as a whole. And, we're fortunate that there are a lot more resources than when we were growing up.

Julia:

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. and I, I definitely want to emphasize that every CODA's experience is 100 percent unique and individual to that person. I have met many other CODAs and all of their experiences are so different, but yet we have so many shared experiences. It's always, you know, making sure that we respect, the similarities that we have and that, each of us has our own unique story. And it's so valuable to hear other people's stories, no matter where they come from. And, you're right, that connection and making sure you have that connection. To be able to lean on other people's stories, to know that, we have each other and we have each other's backs and that, no matter where you come from or what language you speak, making sure that you're here for one another. Yes,

Charlotte:

definitely. I do appreciate you coming on and sharing your story

Julia:

thanks. You're very welcome. It was fun chatting.

Charlotte:

I appreciate you spending this time with me until next time, keep sowing the seeds of love in your life and those around you.